1 00:00:22,180 --> 00:00:09,100 welcome to the skeptic zone the podcast 2 00:00:29,000 --> 00:00:24,800 hello and welcome to the skeptics are an 3 00:00:31,670 --> 00:00:29,010 episode number 245 for the 30th of jun 4 00:00:34,340 --> 00:00:31,680 2013 Richard Saunders here with you from 5 00:00:37,810 --> 00:00:34,350 Sydney Australia where they're blue 6 00:00:40,790 --> 00:00:37,820 skies have returned if only for a moment 7 00:00:42,410 --> 00:00:40,800 and the ground is soggy and soaked and 8 00:00:43,880 --> 00:00:42,420 the waters have been splashing and 9 00:00:46,490 --> 00:00:43,890 everyone's been building arcs and 10 00:00:49,310 --> 00:00:46,500 collecting their animals two-by-two but 11 00:00:52,010 --> 00:00:49,320 I think it might find up soon coming up 12 00:00:54,260 --> 00:00:52,020 on this week's show dr. Richie reports 13 00:00:57,620 --> 00:00:54,270 dr. Reggie reports an interview she 14 00:00:59,120 --> 00:00:57,630 conducted at the recent ish QED 15 00:01:02,000 --> 00:00:59,130 conference in Manchester and what a 16 00:01:04,270 --> 00:01:02,010 great time we had their doctor 'he 17 00:01:07,790 --> 00:01:04,280 interviews row shapiro about her book 18 00:01:11,840 --> 00:01:07,800 suckers how alternative medicine makes 19 00:01:13,910 --> 00:01:11,850 fools of us all of us all away hmm that 20 00:01:15,950 --> 00:01:13,920 interview coming up with rose shapiro at 21 00:01:17,510 --> 00:01:15,960 the top of the show following that it's 22 00:01:18,950 --> 00:01:17,520 a week in science another week in 23 00:01:20,680 --> 00:01:18,960 science with our good friend dr. Paul 24 00:01:23,840 --> 00:01:20,690 Willis from the Royal Institution of 25 00:01:25,400 --> 00:01:23,850 Australia wow what a great job they do i 26 00:01:27,910 --> 00:01:25,410 really enjoy a week in science and 27 00:01:30,109 --> 00:01:27,920 really um it really reminds us all that 28 00:01:33,109 --> 00:01:30,119 science is ongoing and the news out 29 00:01:35,990 --> 00:01:33,119 there is just well never-ending good 30 00:01:38,870 --> 00:01:36,000 stuff following that we're going to play 31 00:01:42,949 --> 00:01:38,880 a clip from federal parliament how about 32 00:01:45,230 --> 00:01:42,959 that greens senator dr. Richard Di 33 00:01:47,690 --> 00:01:45,240 Natale made a speech in the last week 34 00:01:50,150 --> 00:01:47,700 concerning the Australian vaccination 35 00:01:52,400 --> 00:01:50,160 network now I had a letter not so long 36 00:01:54,740 --> 00:01:52,410 ago saying all the skeptics and I enjoy 37 00:01:56,779 --> 00:01:54,750 the skeptic zone but you know what I'm 38 00:02:00,020 --> 00:01:56,789 getting so sick of hearing about the the 39 00:02:02,120 --> 00:02:00,030 vaccination issues well it's important 40 00:02:05,150 --> 00:02:02,130 issues so we're going to keep 41 00:02:07,490 --> 00:02:05,160 broadcasting news about it and this is 42 00:02:10,130 --> 00:02:07,500 particularly significant this is a 43 00:02:12,290 --> 00:02:10,140 speech in our federal parliament the 44 00:02:14,839 --> 00:02:12,300 Parliament of Australia concerning the 45 00:02:17,059 --> 00:02:14,849 Australian vaccination at work I think 46 00:02:19,430 --> 00:02:17,069 you'll find it very interesting and then 47 00:02:21,559 --> 00:02:19,440 to round off the show Maynard spooky 48 00:02:25,360 --> 00:02:21,569 action may not speak to jonathan roberts 49 00:02:30,530 --> 00:02:25,370 from the CSIRO about robot science 50 00:02:32,360 --> 00:02:30,540 robots and laser imaging it's straying a 51 00:02:34,270 --> 00:02:32,370 little bit from skepticism I'll grant 52 00:02:37,510 --> 00:02:34,280 you that but wow what an interesting 53 00:02:39,760 --> 00:02:37,520 and fascinating interview it is robots 54 00:02:42,490 --> 00:02:39,770 and layers of vision well worth a listen 55 00:02:44,980 --> 00:02:42,500 and to be honest folks where would we be 56 00:02:48,580 --> 00:02:44,990 without Maynard any spooky action I 57 00:02:50,440 --> 00:02:48,590 wonder and I'm so so sorry that Maynard 58 00:02:52,500 --> 00:02:50,450 won't be joining us this year at the 59 00:02:56,140 --> 00:02:52,510 amazing meeting at tab because I know 60 00:02:58,720 --> 00:02:56,150 what a great time he had last year 61 00:03:01,510 --> 00:02:58,730 running around like crazy who was like 62 00:03:03,640 --> 00:03:01,520 the golden flash he was wearing a golden 63 00:03:05,820 --> 00:03:03,650 blazer or a code of some description 64 00:03:08,620 --> 00:03:05,830 like you'd see in a las vegas lounge 65 00:03:10,000 --> 00:03:08,630 interviewing everybody and anybody and 66 00:03:12,270 --> 00:03:10,010 running outside and interviewing the 67 00:03:15,040 --> 00:03:12,280 dogs and the cats and he was just 68 00:03:17,710 --> 00:03:15,050 incredible and skeptics and listeners 69 00:03:19,809 --> 00:03:17,720 will will remember his interviews from 70 00:03:20,979 --> 00:03:19,819 the amazing meeting last year went for 71 00:03:23,320 --> 00:03:20,989 months and months it was just fantastic 72 00:03:24,910 --> 00:03:23,330 so may not I'm sorry you can't be with 73 00:03:27,100 --> 00:03:24,920 us this year at the amazing meeting 74 00:03:28,449 --> 00:03:27,110 we're gonna have a great time we'll try 75 00:03:30,220 --> 00:03:28,459 and have a great time without Maynard 76 00:03:32,500 --> 00:03:30,230 I'm looking forward to giving my talk 77 00:03:35,170 --> 00:03:32,510 looking into the mind of the true 78 00:03:38,170 --> 00:03:35,180 believer or I'll discussing psychics and 79 00:03:39,850 --> 00:03:38,180 power bands and water diviners and 80 00:03:42,000 --> 00:03:39,860 firewalkers and things like that and 81 00:03:45,610 --> 00:03:42,010 I'll be in the big hall just outside the 82 00:03:47,430 --> 00:03:45,620 main auditorium doing water divining 83 00:03:51,250 --> 00:03:47,440 demonstrations Power Balance 84 00:03:53,350 --> 00:03:51,260 demonstrations and making more agami I 85 00:03:55,509 --> 00:03:53,360 hope if you're coming to the amazing 86 00:03:57,550 --> 00:03:55,519 meeting I do hope you'll come by and say 87 00:04:00,699 --> 00:03:57,560 hello I don't think I'll be hard to find 88 00:04:03,699 --> 00:04:00,709 and speaking of skeptical conventions 89 00:04:06,370 --> 00:04:03,709 big news tickets for the Australian 90 00:04:09,759 --> 00:04:06,380 skeptics national convention go on sale 91 00:04:11,590 --> 00:04:09,769 from July the first which is well 92 00:04:15,460 --> 00:04:11,600 tomorrow or if you're hearing this is 93 00:04:17,650 --> 00:04:15,470 probably today or yesterday or you 94 00:04:19,870 --> 00:04:17,660 better check this out tickets for the 95 00:04:21,279 --> 00:04:19,880 Australian skeptics national convention 96 00:04:24,190 --> 00:04:21,289 to be held in camera in November are 97 00:04:25,900 --> 00:04:24,200 available from July the first says the 98 00:04:27,940 --> 00:04:25,910 website the convention will be held at 99 00:04:29,710 --> 00:04:27,950 the CSIRO discovery center in Canberra 100 00:04:32,620 --> 00:04:29,720 from the 20 seconds and 24th and 101 00:04:35,980 --> 00:04:32,630 November the theme is landing on the 102 00:04:39,130 --> 00:04:35,990 truth science skepticism and conspiracy 103 00:04:41,230 --> 00:04:39,140 theories this convention is timed to 104 00:04:44,649 --> 00:04:41,240 coincide with the 50th anniversary of 105 00:04:46,870 --> 00:04:44,659 the assassination of JFK not to mention 106 00:04:48,220 --> 00:04:46,880 the first Doctor Who program the 107 00:04:50,710 --> 00:04:48,230 featured internationals 108 00:04:52,570 --> 00:04:50,720 speaker is Professor Chris French head 109 00:04:55,120 --> 00:04:52,580 of the anomalistic psychology research 110 00:04:57,640 --> 00:04:55,130 unit at the psychology department of 111 00:05:01,180 --> 00:04:57,650 Goldsmiths University of London seats 112 00:05:03,370 --> 00:05:01,190 are limited so get your tickets as 113 00:05:07,630 --> 00:05:03,380 quickly as you can if you want to get 114 00:05:12,820 --> 00:05:07,640 your tickets don't hesitate head for www 115 00:05:14,950 --> 00:05:12,830 a Chanel skeptics convention org now you 116 00:05:18,160 --> 00:05:14,960 are national skeptics convention org 117 00:05:19,630 --> 00:05:18,170 news about the agenda the venue the 118 00:05:21,460 --> 00:05:19,640 speaker's the accommodation dinner 119 00:05:22,810 --> 00:05:21,470 you're looking forward to the dinner 120 00:05:24,430 --> 00:05:22,820 we're going to hand out the bent spoon 121 00:05:27,430 --> 00:05:24,440 award that should be fun last year went 122 00:05:29,500 --> 00:05:27,440 to went to the homeopath is and other 123 00:05:31,720 --> 00:05:29,510 information national skeptics convention 124 00:05:33,760 --> 00:05:31,730 dog i'll be there giving a talk looking 125 00:05:37,180 --> 00:05:33,770 forward to that lots of fine people and 126 00:05:40,260 --> 00:05:37,190 good times and just before we kick off 127 00:05:43,330 --> 00:05:40,270 the show good news well good news for me 128 00:05:45,700 --> 00:05:43,340 very good news for me i'm finally over 129 00:05:47,230 --> 00:05:45,710 the rotten sinus infection i had thank 130 00:05:50,950 --> 00:05:47,240 you to all those people who wrote with 131 00:05:52,060 --> 00:05:50,960 the suggestions and just showing me 132 00:05:54,160 --> 00:05:52,070 their concern that was very touching 133 00:05:56,500 --> 00:05:54,170 thank you very much it's wonderful to be 134 00:05:58,480 --> 00:05:56,510 better again no folks I i hope you'll 135 00:06:00,670 --> 00:05:58,490 never get a sinus infection it's time 136 00:06:02,440 --> 00:06:00,680 for me to run downstairs reach into the 137 00:06:04,120 --> 00:06:02,450 freezer even though it's winter here 138 00:06:07,080 --> 00:06:04,130 Australian it's been cold and wet and 139 00:06:09,880 --> 00:06:07,090 miserable I think I'll have a nice um 140 00:06:12,070 --> 00:06:09,890 frozen yogurt yeah why not yeah they're 141 00:06:28,059 --> 00:06:12,080 very tasty well I'm doing that I hope 142 00:06:37,070 --> 00:06:31,430 now it's time for dr. Rachel reports 143 00:06:39,710 --> 00:06:37,080 with dr. Rachel Dunlop hi so we're here 144 00:06:41,180 --> 00:06:39,720 at QED with rose Shapiro hi rose hello 145 00:06:43,730 --> 00:06:41,190 how are you enjoying the conference I'm 146 00:06:45,950 --> 00:06:43,740 having a great time as fabulous good so 147 00:06:47,659 --> 00:06:45,960 you gave an interview yesterday about 148 00:06:50,119 --> 00:06:47,669 your book suckers how alternative 149 00:06:51,649 --> 00:06:50,129 medicine makes fools of us all but your 150 00:06:53,570 --> 00:06:51,659 background comes from journalism doesn't 151 00:06:55,399 --> 00:06:53,580 it from working in magazines yes that's 152 00:06:57,409 --> 00:06:55,409 right I've worked in the mainstream 153 00:07:01,040 --> 00:06:57,419 press for quite a long time particularly 154 00:07:02,749 --> 00:07:01,050 in women's magazines and also in the 155 00:07:05,600 --> 00:07:02,759 health trade press as a health writer 156 00:07:08,149 --> 00:07:05,610 and through that you came across ult med 157 00:07:12,680 --> 00:07:08,159 didn't you yes very much so in the in 158 00:07:15,770 --> 00:07:12,690 women's magazines mainly as in a strange 159 00:07:18,020 --> 00:07:15,780 blurry hinterland between beauty and 160 00:07:20,330 --> 00:07:18,030 health I think it's where it occupies it 161 00:07:23,809 --> 00:07:20,340 yes so tell us how you came to write the 162 00:07:25,219 --> 00:07:23,819 book well I'd wanted I'd been interested 163 00:07:27,080 --> 00:07:25,229 in the area for a very long time and 164 00:07:31,040 --> 00:07:27,090 getting kind of gradually simmering and 165 00:07:32,209 --> 00:07:31,050 simmering Lee angry about various claims 166 00:07:34,520 --> 00:07:32,219 that were being made in a way that 167 00:07:38,390 --> 00:07:34,530 people seem to be taking them up without 168 00:07:41,990 --> 00:07:38,400 any kind of critical thinking and I was 169 00:07:45,110 --> 00:07:42,000 really triggered to write it by a few in 170 00:07:47,180 --> 00:07:45,120 fact a few cases of people I knew who in 171 00:07:50,899 --> 00:07:47,190 a great health crisis we're turning to 172 00:07:53,420 --> 00:07:50,909 alternative practitioners and I just I 173 00:07:55,790 --> 00:07:53,430 got to enough is enough point and really 174 00:07:58,010 --> 00:07:55,800 wanted to do something and you were 175 00:07:59,659 --> 00:07:58,020 telling me yesterday that now when your 176 00:08:00,909 --> 00:07:59,669 friends ask you about what you've done 177 00:08:03,920 --> 00:08:00,919 and you say you've written a book about 178 00:08:05,450 --> 00:08:03,930 augmenting you used to say that and what 179 00:08:08,240 --> 00:08:05,460 would the boiler reaction would be well 180 00:08:09,860 --> 00:08:08,250 what used when I was right whilst I was 181 00:08:11,180 --> 00:08:09,870 writing it if somebody asked me what I 182 00:08:12,800 --> 00:08:11,190 was doing I say I'm writing a book about 183 00:08:14,719 --> 00:08:12,810 alternative medicine and they've kind of 184 00:08:17,600 --> 00:08:14,729 either gonna glaze over thinking oh my 185 00:08:20,809 --> 00:08:17,610 god what she's supporting or assume it 186 00:08:22,939 --> 00:08:20,819 was in support and that led to various 187 00:08:24,660 --> 00:08:22,949 confusing and slightly upsetting 188 00:08:27,600 --> 00:08:24,670 conversations probably 189 00:08:29,760 --> 00:08:27,610 and so I decided to shorten that so that 190 00:08:32,460 --> 00:08:29,770 when they asked me and and all anybody 191 00:08:34,620 --> 00:08:32,470 asked me what it is now I just say it's 192 00:08:36,330 --> 00:08:34,630 a book attacking alternative medicine so 193 00:08:38,370 --> 00:08:36,340 we know where we are but even then 194 00:08:40,440 --> 00:08:38,380 people find it hard to credit that it's 195 00:08:42,390 --> 00:08:40,450 possible certainly for a middle-aged 196 00:08:45,540 --> 00:08:42,400 middle-class woman to take this position 197 00:08:47,160 --> 00:08:45,550 I think his is a bit of a surprise so 198 00:08:49,950 --> 00:08:47,170 what sort of things do you cover in the 199 00:08:53,160 --> 00:08:49,960 book what alt meds do you look at I I 200 00:08:55,470 --> 00:08:53,170 tried to look at everything and anything 201 00:08:59,090 --> 00:08:55,480 that seemed to be making claims without 202 00:09:03,240 --> 00:08:59,100 evidence within the alternative range 203 00:09:05,130 --> 00:09:03,250 and so and it's in it was a weird thing 204 00:09:09,840 --> 00:09:05,140 because in a way they are all exactly 205 00:09:12,410 --> 00:09:09,850 the same and it was quite a difficult 206 00:09:14,970 --> 00:09:12,420 thing to find a way of telling 207 00:09:18,210 --> 00:09:14,980 describing each of their claims in each 208 00:09:21,210 --> 00:09:18,220 of their ideas and all ways in which 209 00:09:23,040 --> 00:09:21,220 they operate without repeating myself 210 00:09:25,590 --> 00:09:23,050 but I hope I've got away with that yeah 211 00:09:26,700 --> 00:09:25,600 so you were talking yesterday about one 212 00:09:28,890 --> 00:09:26,710 of the things you're interested in his 213 00:09:31,440 --> 00:09:28,900 alternative medicine for cancer yes and 214 00:09:33,270 --> 00:09:31,450 you came across a woman who is 215 00:09:36,960 --> 00:09:33,280 Australian actual that's right yes 216 00:09:40,740 --> 00:09:36,970 there's a woman I called Robin Welsh 217 00:09:43,140 --> 00:09:40,750 who's a medical intuitive is how she 218 00:09:46,260 --> 00:09:43,150 describes herself and she does her 219 00:09:49,190 --> 00:09:46,270 healing via a landline I think only so I 220 00:09:53,160 --> 00:09:49,200 don't know how things work out in 2013 221 00:09:56,880 --> 00:09:53,170 but she may bit but as I think as I 222 00:09:59,430 --> 00:09:56,890 found the alternative practitioners are 223 00:10:01,620 --> 00:09:59,440 infinitely adjustable they can find that 224 00:10:03,810 --> 00:10:01,630 they do suddenly find new energies that 225 00:10:06,690 --> 00:10:03,820 operate on a mobile phone that they were 226 00:10:09,930 --> 00:10:06,700 not aware of until now so maybe she's up 227 00:10:12,150 --> 00:10:09,940 to date yeah because she was she has she 228 00:10:14,100 --> 00:10:12,160 has issues with vibrations coming from 229 00:10:16,740 --> 00:10:14,110 phones and cameras and things I think 230 00:10:19,500 --> 00:10:16,750 she does yes I think I think they're 231 00:10:22,110 --> 00:10:19,510 negative energies which I'm sure must 232 00:10:26,040 --> 00:10:22,120 fog up the communication systems in a 233 00:10:27,720 --> 00:10:26,050 way we I just don't understand so you 234 00:10:29,850 --> 00:10:27,730 have investigated quite a lot of 235 00:10:31,620 --> 00:10:29,860 alternative things for cancer what a man 236 00:10:34,960 --> 00:10:31,630 come across that has really made you 237 00:10:40,119 --> 00:10:34,970 angry or disappointed or up 238 00:10:42,519 --> 00:10:40,129 I think anything that leads people to 239 00:10:44,319 --> 00:10:42,529 have those hope because i think it's the 240 00:10:46,600 --> 00:10:44,329 cruelest thing to do to a person who's 241 00:10:49,210 --> 00:10:46,610 facing a serious illness i can 242 00:10:51,699 --> 00:10:49,220 understand how appealing it is i've had 243 00:10:53,350 --> 00:10:51,709 breast cancer myself and i know at the 244 00:10:55,749 --> 00:10:53,360 moment when you're embarking on 245 00:10:58,990 --> 00:10:55,759 chemotherapy the idea of having a flower 246 00:11:01,710 --> 00:10:59,000 remedy instead is just is it's wonderful 247 00:11:05,619 --> 00:11:01,720 because it's a very hard road to travel 248 00:11:08,769 --> 00:11:05,629 if you have conventional treatment and 249 00:11:11,050 --> 00:11:08,779 so so that force that part of it that's 250 00:11:13,540 --> 00:11:11,060 the false hope i think is it's really 251 00:11:17,860 --> 00:11:13,550 the worst thing the thing that annoys me 252 00:11:20,829 --> 00:11:17,870 in inaccurate ated way is people who 253 00:11:23,379 --> 00:11:20,839 have conventional treatment and then 254 00:11:26,740 --> 00:11:23,389 after that do some sort of wheatgrass 255 00:11:29,050 --> 00:11:26,750 drink or flaxseed oil or acupuncture and 256 00:11:32,290 --> 00:11:29,060 attribute their survival to the 257 00:11:35,860 --> 00:11:32,300 acupuncture when they've had surgery 258 00:11:38,470 --> 00:11:35,870 radiotherapy chemotherapy or one of all 259 00:11:40,269 --> 00:11:38,480 of those and then do that attribution I 260 00:11:41,829 --> 00:11:40,279 find it very irritating do you have any 261 00:11:43,840 --> 00:11:41,839 understanding as to why people do that 262 00:11:47,530 --> 00:11:43,850 what is the psychology behind that I 263 00:11:49,179 --> 00:11:47,540 think there is um I mean I have to say 264 00:11:51,189 --> 00:11:49,189 that I think that people who use 265 00:11:54,100 --> 00:11:51,199 alternative medicine clearly like using 266 00:11:55,809 --> 00:11:54,110 it and find it very helpful and 267 00:11:57,579 --> 00:11:55,819 empowering and I think that's probably 268 00:11:59,829 --> 00:11:57,589 the key particularly in relation to 269 00:12:01,240 --> 00:11:59,839 cancer because cancer makes you feel 270 00:12:03,579 --> 00:12:01,250 that you have no power that you have 271 00:12:05,290 --> 00:12:03,589 your you're confronting something that 272 00:12:08,470 --> 00:12:05,300 is bigger than you are and I think 273 00:12:11,470 --> 00:12:08,480 alternative medicine keys in really 274 00:12:14,049 --> 00:12:11,480 effectively to the need to feel that you 275 00:12:16,689 --> 00:12:14,059 are taking some control but there are 276 00:12:18,429 --> 00:12:16,699 other ways to do that that you that I 277 00:12:21,009 --> 00:12:18,439 don't think are alternative or things 278 00:12:25,119 --> 00:12:21,019 like taking a lot of exercise and all 279 00:12:27,490 --> 00:12:25,129 that enjoying yourself with your friends 280 00:12:30,100 --> 00:12:27,500 which again some of these regimes with 281 00:12:32,259 --> 00:12:30,110 in cancer therapy deny those things to 282 00:12:34,420 --> 00:12:32,269 you say Gerson Therapy where you have to 283 00:12:37,059 --> 00:12:34,430 be met juicing 13 times a day and eating 284 00:12:40,030 --> 00:12:37,069 separately the things that it's worth 285 00:12:42,220 --> 00:12:40,040 living for are denied I mean you told me 286 00:12:44,799 --> 00:12:42,230 a story yesterday about a lady who had 287 00:12:46,960 --> 00:12:44,809 all her teeth removed yes yes there was 288 00:12:47,510 --> 00:12:46,970 one case that was reported by the BBC of 289 00:12:50,750 --> 00:12:47,520 some 290 00:12:55,310 --> 00:12:50,760 d who was following the hall de klerk 291 00:12:57,830 --> 00:12:55,320 who's a now-deceased I think of cancer 292 00:13:00,530 --> 00:12:57,840 yes she does yes she had a magical 293 00:13:03,110 --> 00:13:00,540 zapping cancer cure yes yes and she 294 00:13:05,180 --> 00:13:03,120 believed that all cancers as so many 295 00:13:07,490 --> 00:13:05,190 alternative medicine practitioners do 296 00:13:10,190 --> 00:13:07,500 they have a single cause for all 297 00:13:13,820 --> 00:13:10,200 diseases very often and she believed 298 00:13:16,610 --> 00:13:13,830 that it was caused by a kind of fluke 299 00:13:21,820 --> 00:13:16,620 that occupied the body and toxins the 300 00:13:24,230 --> 00:13:21,830 usual some not ask yes yes yes and a 301 00:13:26,990 --> 00:13:24,240 practitioner who was a I think 302 00:13:30,200 --> 00:13:27,000 practicing her method told a woman who 303 00:13:32,180 --> 00:13:30,210 was in the last few weeks of life with 304 00:13:34,220 --> 00:13:32,190 pancreatic cancer I think that she 305 00:13:36,620 --> 00:13:34,230 needed to have all her teeth removed and 306 00:13:38,180 --> 00:13:36,630 she because they were full of toxins and 307 00:13:40,040 --> 00:13:38,190 that's what was causing the cancer and 308 00:13:42,380 --> 00:13:40,050 so she spent I think five weeks before 309 00:13:46,100 --> 00:13:42,390 she died she had all her teeth removed 310 00:13:49,070 --> 00:13:46,110 by a self-styled holistic dentist cuz 311 00:13:52,280 --> 00:13:49,080 it's is cruelty and exploitation of the 312 00:13:53,870 --> 00:13:52,290 way it is yeah so European what's your 313 00:13:55,400 --> 00:13:53,880 opinion of these sort of integrated 314 00:13:57,410 --> 00:13:55,410 cancer centers that are popping up all 315 00:13:58,970 --> 00:13:57,420 over the place that offer complementary 316 00:14:03,760 --> 00:13:58,980 therapies along with conventional 317 00:14:06,170 --> 00:14:03,770 science-based medicine well I think it's 318 00:14:08,600 --> 00:14:06,180 fundamentally it's a question of what 319 00:14:11,270 --> 00:14:08,610 claims they're making if they're making 320 00:14:13,610 --> 00:14:11,280 any claim beyond this might cheer you up 321 00:14:17,450 --> 00:14:13,620 a bit or make you feel a bit more 322 00:14:18,740 --> 00:14:17,460 relaxed or two so that you might sleep 323 00:14:21,770 --> 00:14:18,750 better because you're more relaxed 324 00:14:24,230 --> 00:14:21,780 that's for me that's where it stops in 325 00:14:28,820 --> 00:14:24,240 terms of it being acceptable and I think 326 00:14:30,620 --> 00:14:28,830 there's a very but because they are it's 327 00:14:33,080 --> 00:14:30,630 very easy to think even if they don't 328 00:14:34,820 --> 00:14:33,090 explicitly say that doing something will 329 00:14:37,460 --> 00:14:34,830 change the course of your illness it 330 00:14:38,810 --> 00:14:37,470 seems very often to me to be easy to 331 00:14:41,000 --> 00:14:38,820 read that between the lines especially 332 00:14:43,520 --> 00:14:41,010 when you're in the state of experience 333 00:14:45,290 --> 00:14:43,530 of cancer the cancer illness so if 334 00:14:47,420 --> 00:14:45,300 someone came to off your foot massage if 335 00:14:49,610 --> 00:14:47,430 they pee yes reflexology rather than and 336 00:14:51,320 --> 00:14:49,620 yes yes yes exactly that might lead i 337 00:14:53,990 --> 00:14:51,330 think it's going to do something yes it 338 00:14:55,010 --> 00:14:54,000 can assist you can yes yeah yeah i mean 339 00:14:57,530 --> 00:14:55,020 you were talking yesterday about the 340 00:14:59,170 --> 00:14:57,540 thin and if thin end of the wedge in 341 00:15:01,660 --> 00:14:59,180 terms of alternative therapies 342 00:15:03,190 --> 00:15:01,670 think he said the the fat end is cancer 343 00:15:08,080 --> 00:15:03,200 and what's up the top in the skinny end 344 00:15:10,450 --> 00:15:08,090 um the skinny end would be homeopathic 345 00:15:13,210 --> 00:15:10,460 teething granules you know I mean 346 00:15:14,860 --> 00:15:13,220 they're they're made of lactose they 347 00:15:17,050 --> 00:15:14,870 cost rather a lot of money for a small 348 00:15:19,330 --> 00:15:17,060 amount of lactose you put them in your 349 00:15:21,040 --> 00:15:19,340 child's mouth and everybody relax is 350 00:15:23,650 --> 00:15:21,050 slightly and maybe the child is having 351 00:15:27,970 --> 00:15:23,660 nice sweet tasting in her mouth and so 352 00:15:31,510 --> 00:15:27,980 she stops bawling but I guess it's a 353 00:15:34,540 --> 00:15:31,520 continuum but I do feel that that the 354 00:15:36,970 --> 00:15:34,550 acceptance of things that are really no 355 00:15:39,190 --> 00:15:36,980 harm to anybody particularly I think 356 00:15:41,860 --> 00:15:39,200 that that has a kind of effect on the 357 00:15:46,570 --> 00:15:41,870 climate that leads people to feel that 358 00:15:48,850 --> 00:15:46,580 the really hard exploitative end is more 359 00:15:50,830 --> 00:15:48,860 acceptable so there's been some 360 00:15:53,410 --> 00:15:50,840 discussion this weekend about NHS 361 00:15:54,550 --> 00:15:53,420 Choices the NHS is the National Health 362 00:15:56,770 --> 00:15:54,560 Service which has recently being 363 00:15:58,510 --> 00:15:56,780 privatized in the UK well it's not as 364 00:16:00,190 --> 00:15:58,520 yet it's more complicated than that but 365 00:16:02,620 --> 00:16:00,200 I don't understand it but fortunately 366 00:16:05,500 --> 00:16:02,630 nobody understands and where say ok but 367 00:16:07,900 --> 00:16:05,510 so by the government offering choices in 368 00:16:10,840 --> 00:16:07,910 terms of say homeopathy as an option in 369 00:16:13,180 --> 00:16:10,850 the from public money that in a ways I 370 00:16:16,210 --> 00:16:13,190 guess the thin end of the wedge in that 371 00:16:17,410 --> 00:16:16,220 people begin to accept it yeah I think I 372 00:16:18,910 --> 00:16:17,420 mean it's going to be interesting to see 373 00:16:23,260 --> 00:16:18,920 how that works out because it isn't 374 00:16:25,210 --> 00:16:23,270 quite like that those choices for 375 00:16:27,580 --> 00:16:25,220 funding have been devolved to a more 376 00:16:30,130 --> 00:16:27,590 local level of general practitioners and 377 00:16:31,780 --> 00:16:30,140 I think quite a lot of them won't want 378 00:16:34,210 --> 00:16:31,790 to pay for it because they're paying for 379 00:16:35,710 --> 00:16:34,220 out of their budget their money and one 380 00:16:37,420 --> 00:16:35,720 would hope that they'll be robust about 381 00:16:39,220 --> 00:16:37,430 it and say you know you do it if you 382 00:16:42,760 --> 00:16:39,230 want to go down to your chemist and buy 383 00:16:44,920 --> 00:16:42,770 this stuff it's up to you but but I hope 384 00:16:46,830 --> 00:16:44,930 that they'll be robust and unref used to 385 00:16:49,840 --> 00:16:46,840 do it yeah and that is happening 386 00:16:52,330 --> 00:16:49,850 increasingly in terms of GP referral 387 00:16:53,920 --> 00:16:52,340 anyway I think so have you got any 388 00:16:55,689 --> 00:16:53,930 players to write another book a sequel 389 00:16:58,659 --> 00:16:55,699 perhaps two suckers or something 390 00:17:00,249 --> 00:16:58,669 no I sort of various things come out of 391 00:17:03,699 --> 00:17:00,259 it and still I'm still doing a lot of 392 00:17:07,379 --> 00:17:03,709 work related to that book and various 393 00:17:09,970 --> 00:17:07,389 things that I'm interested in such as 394 00:17:12,399 --> 00:17:09,980 the ill I did I discover that a lot of 395 00:17:14,169 --> 00:17:12,409 the illnesses that alter that the blood 396 00:17:16,449 --> 00:17:14,179 of people who go to alternative 397 00:17:17,889 --> 00:17:16,459 practitioners have what and often 398 00:17:20,679 --> 00:17:17,899 describes medically unexplained 399 00:17:23,649 --> 00:17:20,689 illnesses and they can they can be 400 00:17:25,409 --> 00:17:23,659 horribly exploited by alternative 401 00:17:27,309 --> 00:17:25,419 practitioners and say people with 402 00:17:31,330 --> 00:17:27,319 conditions like chronic fatigue syndrome 403 00:17:34,149 --> 00:17:31,340 go from one to another because it cut 404 00:17:36,129 --> 00:17:34,159 because if they're promised so much but 405 00:17:39,190 --> 00:17:36,139 but they're not really helped yeah is 406 00:17:40,629 --> 00:17:39,200 that something you've been yes yes well 407 00:17:41,769 --> 00:17:40,639 I hope we do see another book for 408 00:17:43,960 --> 00:17:41,779 memories because we loved your book 409 00:17:45,759 --> 00:17:43,970 adding key my colleague job enemy who's 410 00:17:47,139 --> 00:17:45,769 on the podcast so she uses your book for 411 00:17:48,940 --> 00:17:47,149 references all the time going to 412 00:17:50,919 --> 00:17:48,950 parently got post-it notes and dog ear 413 00:17:52,539 --> 00:17:50,929 really well I did the good thing about 414 00:17:55,210 --> 00:17:52,549 it is because it's all based on ancient 415 00:17:58,389 --> 00:17:55,220 wisdom which never changes it's always 416 00:18:06,830 --> 00:17:58,399 up to date you don't know but thanks for 417 00:18:11,460 --> 00:18:09,420 hi there this is ben Radford from 418 00:18:14,160 --> 00:18:11,470 skeptical inquirer magazine the monster 419 00:18:16,020 --> 00:18:14,170 talk podcast Discovery News skeptical 420 00:18:17,190 --> 00:18:16,030 conferences and elsewhere you may also 421 00:18:19,050 --> 00:18:17,200 know me as the guy that's all the 422 00:18:20,220 --> 00:18:19,060 chupacabra mystery I want to let you 423 00:18:22,680 --> 00:18:20,230 know about a cool new board game I 424 00:18:24,300 --> 00:18:22,690 created called undead apocalypse war of 425 00:18:26,580 --> 00:18:24,310 the damned undead apocalypse has 426 00:18:28,200 --> 00:18:26,590 vampires and werewolves and zombies all 427 00:18:30,690 --> 00:18:28,210 battling it out in a post-apocalyptic 428 00:18:33,150 --> 00:18:30,700 world with humans so it's sort of like 429 00:18:34,350 --> 00:18:33,160 Mad Max meets the walking dead so if 430 00:18:36,150 --> 00:18:34,360 you're interested in zombies and 431 00:18:38,730 --> 00:18:36,160 werewolves and vampires or board games 432 00:18:41,130 --> 00:18:38,740 of any kind or my work please check it 433 00:18:44,070 --> 00:18:41,140 out thanks i appreciate undead 434 00:18:47,150 --> 00:18:44,080 apocalypse the fast pace for game where 435 00:18:50,460 --> 00:18:47,160 you control armies of zombies vampires 436 00:18:53,640 --> 00:18:50,470 werewolves and humans in Earth's final 437 00:18:56,130 --> 00:18:53,650 war of the damned learn more at undead 438 00:19:05,090 --> 00:18:56,140 board game com or support us on 439 00:19:11,730 --> 00:19:08,280 welcome to a week in science from RI oz 440 00:19:14,160 --> 00:19:11,740 this week regrowing nerves genes for 441 00:19:22,600 --> 00:19:14,170 migraines and monkeying around with 442 00:19:26,780 --> 00:19:25,280 we used to think that nerves in the 443 00:19:29,060 --> 00:19:26,790 central nervous system couldn't 444 00:19:31,000 --> 00:19:29,070 regenerate after an injury but new 445 00:19:33,500 --> 00:19:31,010 research has not that on the head 446 00:19:35,330 --> 00:19:33,510 microscopic analysis of damaged nerves 447 00:19:37,490 --> 00:19:35,340 in the central nervous system of mice 448 00:19:39,980 --> 00:19:37,500 reveals that they not only regenerate 449 00:19:41,630 --> 00:19:39,990 but they do so it rates comparable to 450 00:19:43,970 --> 00:19:41,640 the regrowth of other parts of the 451 00:19:46,010 --> 00:19:43,980 nervous system the researchers are 452 00:19:49,010 --> 00:19:46,020 unsure why or how this regeneration 453 00:19:51,530 --> 00:19:49,020 happens but the observation opens up new 454 00:19:55,910 --> 00:19:51,540 areas of research into regrowing damaged 455 00:19:58,460 --> 00:19:55,920 nerves in humans there's good news for 456 00:20:00,950 --> 00:19:58,470 sports fans this week humans have 457 00:20:02,870 --> 00:20:00,960 evolved for throwing a number of 458 00:20:04,730 --> 00:20:02,880 anatomical features in the human 459 00:20:07,370 --> 00:20:04,740 shoulder have been shown to boost 460 00:20:10,250 --> 00:20:07,380 throwing power and accuracy these 461 00:20:12,470 --> 00:20:10,260 shoulder features only appeared after we 462 00:20:15,080 --> 00:20:12,480 started walking upright when the hands 463 00:20:17,420 --> 00:20:15,090 and arms were free these features date 464 00:20:20,660 --> 00:20:17,430 back at least two million years to our 465 00:20:22,850 --> 00:20:20,670 ancestors Homo erectus suggesting their 466 00:20:25,130 --> 00:20:22,860 anatomy developed to throw Spears and 467 00:20:27,380 --> 00:20:25,140 other objects when hunting you're 468 00:20:30,980 --> 00:20:27,390 listening to a week in science from our 469 00:20:33,710 --> 00:20:30,990 iOS and now for size headlines in 30 470 00:20:36,130 --> 00:20:33,720 seconds 12 sites on the human genome 471 00:20:38,990 --> 00:20:36,140 have been linked to migraines and 472 00:20:41,690 --> 00:20:39,000 remember visual clues to help find their 473 00:20:44,120 --> 00:20:41,700 way home plants accurately measure their 474 00:20:45,860 --> 00:20:44,130 stored energy and then calculate how 475 00:20:48,470 --> 00:20:45,870 much to use to last them through the 476 00:20:50,690 --> 00:20:48,480 night and a strong correlation has been 477 00:20:52,730 --> 00:20:50,700 found between people's maths ability and 478 00:20:56,060 --> 00:20:52,740 the likelihood that they will default on 479 00:20:58,670 --> 00:20:56,070 their home mortgage and finally this 480 00:21:01,250 --> 00:20:58,680 week monkeys use social networks to 481 00:21:03,530 --> 00:21:01,260 spread ideas dominant monkeys were 482 00:21:05,720 --> 00:21:03,540 isolated from their troops and shown two 483 00:21:08,420 --> 00:21:05,730 different ways to open a box containing 484 00:21:10,660 --> 00:21:08,430 food either by lifting a flap or 485 00:21:13,370 --> 00:21:10,670 pivoting that flat from side to side 486 00:21:15,560 --> 00:21:13,380 when these monkeys will reintroduce to 487 00:21:18,110 --> 00:21:15,570 their troops researchers followed how 488 00:21:20,150 --> 00:21:18,120 quickly the new behaviors spread they 489 00:21:22,190 --> 00:21:20,160 found that groups organized around a 490 00:21:25,220 --> 00:21:22,200 strong central leader spread the new 491 00:21:28,020 --> 00:21:25,230 ideas more quickly 492 00:21:30,690 --> 00:21:28,030 arias goes to Western Australia next 493 00:21:33,330 --> 00:21:30,700 month for a special event in Albany 494 00:21:35,760 --> 00:21:33,340 we're asking what the future holds for 495 00:21:38,340 --> 00:21:35,770 regional towns like alberni in the face 496 00:21:40,790 --> 00:21:38,350 of impending global problems more 497 00:21:44,340 --> 00:21:40,800 details can be found on our website 498 00:21:46,530 --> 00:21:44,350 re-org a you that's been the highlights 499 00:21:48,660 --> 00:21:46,540 of another big week in science for more 500 00:21:53,370 --> 00:21:48,670 information and other science news check 501 00:21:55,470 --> 00:21:53,380 out the rirs website RI aus org a you 502 00:21:58,530 --> 00:21:55,480 where you can also sign up for 503 00:22:00,330 --> 00:21:58,540 notifications of future episodes you can 504 00:22:03,690 --> 00:22:00,340 follow a week in science on twitter 505 00:22:06,720 --> 00:22:03,700 using the hashtag week inside i'm paul 506 00:22:18,799 --> 00:22:06,730 willis and on behalf of the RAS teen see 507 00:22:22,730 --> 00:22:20,960 be reasonable is a podcast of the 508 00:22:24,950 --> 00:22:22,740 Merseyside skeptics society featuring 509 00:22:27,019 --> 00:22:24,960 hayley stevens and Michael Marshall each 510 00:22:29,269 --> 00:22:27,029 monthly interview explores beliefs from 511 00:22:30,769 --> 00:22:29,279 outside of the mainstream engaging with 512 00:22:32,570 --> 00:22:30,779 proponents of those beliefs to examine 513 00:22:35,539 --> 00:22:32,580 the evidence and reasoning behind each 514 00:22:37,639 --> 00:22:35,549 idea in June's episode we speak with 515 00:22:39,409 --> 00:22:37,649 novena shine who made the headlines with 516 00:22:42,320 --> 00:22:39,419 her attempt to live for six months 517 00:22:44,629 --> 00:22:42,330 without food listen to novena story and 518 00:22:47,029 --> 00:22:44,639 back issues of the show by visiting 519 00:22:49,009 --> 00:22:47,039 merseyside skeptics talked at UK forward 520 00:23:06,109 --> 00:22:49,019 slash podcasts or search for be 521 00:23:08,090 --> 00:23:06,119 reasonable on itunes pressure continues 522 00:23:11,840 --> 00:23:08,100 to rise on the Australian vaccination 523 00:23:13,700 --> 00:23:11,850 network to shut down this week stop the 524 00:23:16,070 --> 00:23:13,710 Australian vaccination Network which was 525 00:23:18,320 --> 00:23:16,080 established over four years ago got a 526 00:23:21,249 --> 00:23:18,330 shout-out in federal parliament when 527 00:23:23,810 --> 00:23:21,259 greens senator dr. Richard Di Natale 528 00:23:25,820 --> 00:23:23,820 introduced a motion to Parliament to 529 00:23:29,480 --> 00:23:25,830 request the Australian vaccination 530 00:23:31,430 --> 00:23:29,490 network to be disbanded immediately the 531 00:23:34,039 --> 00:23:31,440 motion was voted in unanimously on 532 00:23:36,200 --> 00:23:34,049 Tuesday and on Thursday he made a ten 533 00:23:38,659 --> 00:23:36,210 minute long speech detailing the reasons 534 00:23:40,909 --> 00:23:38,669 why the Australian vaccination at work 535 00:23:43,220 --> 00:23:40,919 needed to be stopped we'll play a 536 00:23:45,109 --> 00:23:43,230 section from that speech in a moment but 537 00:23:47,090 --> 00:23:45,119 just to remind listeners this is not the 538 00:23:50,060 --> 00:23:47,100 first time the Australian vaccination at 539 00:23:53,299 --> 00:23:50,070 work or avian have got a mention in 540 00:23:54,739 --> 00:23:53,309 Parliament in a derogatory sense but 541 00:23:57,739 --> 00:23:54,749 this is the first time a federal 542 00:23:59,779 --> 00:23:57,749 politician has become involved in New 543 00:24:01,820 --> 00:23:59,789 South Wales there has been several 544 00:24:03,730 --> 00:24:01,830 occasions where politicians of all 545 00:24:07,190 --> 00:24:03,740 colors have stood shoulder to shoulder 546 00:24:09,739 --> 00:24:07,200 united in their damnation of the avian 547 00:24:11,269 --> 00:24:09,749 dr a cheese blog details some of the 548 00:24:13,820 --> 00:24:11,279 exits from the New South Wales 549 00:24:15,619 --> 00:24:13,830 statements and I'll link to this in the 550 00:24:17,840 --> 00:24:15,629 show notes but what does all this mean 551 00:24:20,330 --> 00:24:17,850 well probably not a whole lot in 552 00:24:22,399 --> 00:24:20,340 practical terms there is not much the 553 00:24:25,249 --> 00:24:22,409 federal government can do about the 554 00:24:27,950 --> 00:24:25,259 avian hence the use of the terms request 555 00:24:30,109 --> 00:24:27,960 to shut down however what this does do 556 00:24:31,690 --> 00:24:30,119 is to add another government body to the 557 00:24:34,090 --> 00:24:31,700 long list of Department 558 00:24:36,820 --> 00:24:34,100 who clearly have the avian in their 559 00:24:39,310 --> 00:24:36,830 sights it also sends a strong message to 560 00:24:41,740 --> 00:24:39,320 the public that the avian is not a 561 00:24:44,259 --> 00:24:41,750 reliable or respectable source for 562 00:24:47,620 --> 00:24:44,269 information and it totally and 563 00:24:49,960 --> 00:24:47,630 thoroughly annoyed the avian so much so 564 00:24:52,419 --> 00:24:49,970 that their new president greg BTW call 565 00:24:54,610 --> 00:24:52,429 up senator didn't tally and gave him a 566 00:24:56,919 --> 00:24:54,620 piece of his mind so to speak how do we 567 00:25:00,039 --> 00:24:56,929 know this well because he recorded the 568 00:25:02,500 --> 00:25:00,049 conversation mostly only his side can be 569 00:25:04,840 --> 00:25:02,510 heard and merrill dory posted it on a 570 00:25:07,269 --> 00:25:04,850 blog BTW can be heard raising his voice 571 00:25:10,269 --> 00:25:07,279 of the senator and pretty much sounding 572 00:25:12,580 --> 00:25:10,279 like a petulant toddler which is bad 573 00:25:14,590 --> 00:25:12,590 enough but may not be the worst thing 574 00:25:17,110 --> 00:25:14,600 about this call in some parts of 575 00:25:19,269 --> 00:25:17,120 australia it is illegal to record and 576 00:25:22,120 --> 00:25:19,279 broadcast phone calls without the other 577 00:25:24,250 --> 00:25:22,130 person's permission which is why in this 578 00:25:26,680 --> 00:25:24,260 country many call centers have phrases 579 00:25:28,240 --> 00:25:26,690 like this call will be recorded please 580 00:25:30,700 --> 00:25:28,250 advise if you don't want this to happen 581 00:25:33,159 --> 00:25:30,710 it seems doubtful that BTW has the 582 00:25:36,460 --> 00:25:33,169 permission from center to denote ali to 583 00:25:38,320 --> 00:25:36,470 broadcast this conversation so he may be 584 00:25:40,360 --> 00:25:38,330 in trouble for a lot more than just 585 00:25:42,909 --> 00:25:40,370 spreading misinformation about 586 00:25:45,279 --> 00:25:42,919 vaccinations we'll keep you posted if 587 00:25:47,680 --> 00:25:45,289 there are any further developments in 588 00:25:50,860 --> 00:25:47,690 the meantime here is the audio from 589 00:25:53,049 --> 00:25:50,870 senator dinatale speech which was posted 590 00:25:55,649 --> 00:25:53,059 on youtube and should be spread far and 591 00:25:57,879 --> 00:25:55,659 wide link will be in the show notes 592 00:26:00,190 --> 00:25:57,889 congratulations to Senator Dino tally 593 00:26:04,680 --> 00:26:00,200 for standing up to the Australian 594 00:26:07,240 --> 00:26:04,690 vaccination Network few parents today 595 00:26:09,759 --> 00:26:07,250 have had the experience of watching a 596 00:26:13,320 --> 00:26:09,769 child with measles develop complications 597 00:26:16,029 --> 00:26:13,330 that become a life-threatening condition 598 00:26:18,879 --> 00:26:16,039 we're spared the horror of watching a 599 00:26:21,930 --> 00:26:18,889 child with whooping cough turned blue 600 00:26:24,399 --> 00:26:21,940 and suffer a seizure from a coughing fit 601 00:26:27,100 --> 00:26:24,409 we're no longer encounter people on a 602 00:26:30,960 --> 00:26:27,110 daily basis whose limbs have been 603 00:26:33,519 --> 00:26:30,970 twisted by paralytic poliomyelitis as 604 00:26:35,860 --> 00:26:33,529 these horrors have faded from daily life 605 00:26:38,529 --> 00:26:35,870 we should be celebrating the life saving 606 00:26:42,450 --> 00:26:38,539 innovation that has saved us and now 607 00:26:45,550 --> 00:26:42,460 kids from death and disease instead 608 00:26:49,050 --> 00:26:45,560 there are people who now question 609 00:26:51,660 --> 00:26:49,060 ennis of vaccine itself the avian 610 00:26:54,430 --> 00:26:51,670 Australian vaccination Network 611 00:26:56,650 --> 00:26:54,440 misleadingly named founded in nineteen 612 00:27:00,190 --> 00:26:56,660 ninety-four have styled themselves as 613 00:27:03,010 --> 00:27:00,200 providers of vaccine information in fact 614 00:27:06,850 --> 00:27:03,020 their mission is to deter patients from 615 00:27:09,070 --> 00:27:06,860 getting their children vaccinated they 616 00:27:10,840 --> 00:27:09,080 accomplished their mission by sowing 617 00:27:12,940 --> 00:27:10,850 fear and doubt in the minds of parents 618 00:27:16,660 --> 00:27:12,950 who of young kids and dressing it up in 619 00:27:18,670 --> 00:27:16,670 the language of science they pretend to 620 00:27:21,100 --> 00:27:18,680 be mutual providers of information to 621 00:27:24,630 --> 00:27:21,110 allow parents to make a choice but in 622 00:27:27,160 --> 00:27:24,640 reality they are fiercely anti-vaccine 623 00:27:28,990 --> 00:27:27,170 the claims made by the avian and 624 00:27:32,830 --> 00:27:29,000 particularly by their founder miss 625 00:27:34,720 --> 00:27:32,840 Merrill Dori beggar belief despite being 626 00:27:36,670 --> 00:27:34,730 corrected numerous times by health 627 00:27:39,010 --> 00:27:36,680 professional scientists and so on they 628 00:27:43,030 --> 00:27:39,020 continue to propagate outright myths 629 00:27:45,880 --> 00:27:43,040 about vaccines and their safety they say 630 00:27:47,950 --> 00:27:45,890 that the mmm MMR vaccine causes autism a 631 00:27:51,460 --> 00:27:47,960 claim they know that has been thoroughly 632 00:27:53,410 --> 00:27:51,470 and comprehensively debunked they claim 633 00:27:56,290 --> 00:27:53,420 links between vaccines and sudden infant 634 00:27:58,440 --> 00:27:56,300 death syndrome they claim HPV does not 635 00:28:00,700 --> 00:27:58,450 cause cancer but that vaccines do 636 00:28:03,070 --> 00:28:00,710 they're on the record claiming that 637 00:28:06,670 --> 00:28:03,080 pertussis or whooping cough is not safe 638 00:28:09,490 --> 00:28:06,680 and has not been tested the list goes on 639 00:28:13,030 --> 00:28:09,500 as well as making false claims about 640 00:28:15,310 --> 00:28:13,040 vaccines miss story and the avian make 641 00:28:17,920 --> 00:28:15,320 even more looted ludicrous claims about 642 00:28:20,140 --> 00:28:17,930 the diseases they were designed to 643 00:28:22,270 --> 00:28:20,150 prevent they dispute the harms of 644 00:28:25,840 --> 00:28:22,280 dangerous childhood diseases in order to 645 00:28:28,150 --> 00:28:25,850 downplay the benefits of a vaccine one 646 00:28:30,550 --> 00:28:28,160 especially preposterous example of this 647 00:28:33,790 --> 00:28:30,560 claim is that measles is beneficial to 648 00:28:36,760 --> 00:28:33,800 children making them more robust than 649 00:28:38,800 --> 00:28:36,770 leading to growth spurts a Miss story 650 00:28:42,190 --> 00:28:38,810 has claimed that the word measles in 651 00:28:45,160 --> 00:28:42,200 Sanskrit means gift from a goddess and 652 00:28:47,500 --> 00:28:45,170 has publicized a book called Melanie's 653 00:28:49,570 --> 00:28:47,510 marvelous measles the downplays the 654 00:28:52,240 --> 00:28:49,580 dangers of this disease well mr. 655 00:28:54,610 --> 00:28:52,250 president as a doctor I can inform the 656 00:28:57,220 --> 00:28:54,620 Senate that measles isn't a magical gift 657 00:28:59,150 --> 00:28:57,230 from mother nature it's a virus that 658 00:29:01,250 --> 00:28:59,160 damages the human body 659 00:29:05,390 --> 00:29:01,260 and has the potential for serious and 660 00:29:07,580 --> 00:29:05,400 sometimes fatal complications in 2001 661 00:29:09,380 --> 00:29:07,590 the World Health Organization estimated 662 00:29:13,220 --> 00:29:09,390 a hundred and fifty-eight thousand 663 00:29:15,200 --> 00:29:13,230 deaths from this disease it's one of the 664 00:29:17,930 --> 00:29:15,210 leading causes of preventable disease 665 00:29:20,330 --> 00:29:17,940 worldwide and to suggest that a parent 666 00:29:23,150 --> 00:29:20,340 should deliberately expose their child 667 00:29:27,170 --> 00:29:23,160 to this disease is reckless it's 668 00:29:29,360 --> 00:29:27,180 dangerous and it can be fatal when 669 00:29:32,420 --> 00:29:29,370 concerned citizens seek to shine a light 670 00:29:34,790 --> 00:29:32,430 on the absurd beliefs of the avn their 671 00:29:37,460 --> 00:29:34,800 reactions are telling doctors are called 672 00:29:41,090 --> 00:29:37,470 killers and terrorists and vaccinations 673 00:29:42,650 --> 00:29:41,100 linked or likened to rape by the avn to 674 00:29:44,900 --> 00:29:42,660 silence critics they take out 675 00:29:47,510 --> 00:29:44,910 apprehended violent apprehended violence 676 00:29:49,610 --> 00:29:47,520 orders and when tragedies have occurred 677 00:29:51,980 --> 00:29:49,620 that put lie to their nonsensical claims 678 00:29:54,800 --> 00:29:51,990 they've gone so far as to harass 679 00:29:57,650 --> 00:29:54,810 grieving parents miss story is alleged 680 00:29:59,720 --> 00:29:57,660 to have called Chris coca guy whose 681 00:30:01,310 --> 00:29:59,730 child died of chickenpox and said that 682 00:30:04,640 --> 00:30:01,320 his child died because his child was 683 00:30:06,560 --> 00:30:04,650 weak in 2009 Danny McCaffrey the 684 00:30:08,690 --> 00:30:06,570 daughter of david and Tony McCaffrey 685 00:30:11,750 --> 00:30:08,700 tragically died from the whooping cough 686 00:30:14,090 --> 00:30:11,760 infection and incredibly in response to 687 00:30:16,160 --> 00:30:14,100 this tragedy miss Dorry went as far as 688 00:30:18,350 --> 00:30:16,170 to contact the New South Wales Director 689 00:30:20,030 --> 00:30:18,360 of Public Health to dispute the cause of 690 00:30:23,240 --> 00:30:20,040 death and ask for confidential medical 691 00:30:24,680 --> 00:30:23,250 information when the story became public 692 00:30:27,260 --> 00:30:24,690 they had to into your months of 693 00:30:29,720 --> 00:30:27,270 harassment from the avian and had to 694 00:30:31,580 --> 00:30:29,730 wind your watching dorigo on TV denial 695 00:30:33,800 --> 00:30:31,590 denying a child who died of whooping 696 00:30:37,040 --> 00:30:33,810 cough and accusing them of turning dana 697 00:30:39,560 --> 00:30:37,050 into a martyr but fortunately there are 698 00:30:41,630 --> 00:30:39,570 people in the community fighting against 699 00:30:44,660 --> 00:30:41,640 the harmful and bullying tactics of the 700 00:30:47,720 --> 00:30:44,670 avian in response to this disgraceful 701 00:30:50,090 --> 00:30:47,730 harassment of the McCaffrey's the group 702 00:30:52,100 --> 00:30:50,100 stopped the avian was formed with the 703 00:30:54,050 --> 00:30:52,110 purpose of combat combating the 704 00:30:56,750 --> 00:30:54,060 dangerous campaign and I'm grateful to 705 00:30:59,540 --> 00:30:56,760 people like Daniel Raphael Peter 706 00:31:01,820 --> 00:30:59,550 Bowditch Ken MacLeod and others who have 707 00:31:04,880 --> 00:31:01,830 endured the harassment of miss Dorry and 708 00:31:07,100 --> 00:31:04,890 her followers but they do it in order to 709 00:31:09,230 --> 00:31:07,110 save other parents the unending pain and 710 00:31:12,710 --> 00:31:09,240 heartache that they themselves have had 711 00:31:13,250 --> 00:31:12,720 to endure mr. president Dana McCaffrey 712 00:31:15,710 --> 00:31:13,260 was too 713 00:31:18,680 --> 00:31:15,720 to receive the whooping cough vaccine 714 00:31:20,540 --> 00:31:18,690 she died though because the vaccination 715 00:31:22,190 --> 00:31:20,550 rate in the northern rivers area of New 716 00:31:25,090 --> 00:31:22,200 South Wales where she's born is 717 00:31:28,870 --> 00:31:25,100 alarmingly low at only seventy percent 718 00:31:33,110 --> 00:31:28,880 when you reach a threshold at that level 719 00:31:35,900 --> 00:31:33,120 the conditions for an outbreak occur and 720 00:31:38,030 --> 00:31:35,910 the virus was only able to survive and 721 00:31:41,690 --> 00:31:38,040 thrive in that community because 722 00:31:44,900 --> 00:31:41,700 vaccination rates were so low and it's 723 00:31:46,700 --> 00:31:44,910 this area this very area where the avian 724 00:31:49,430 --> 00:31:46,710 is strongest and where they're based 725 00:31:51,920 --> 00:31:49,440 they are the consequence of an 726 00:31:56,060 --> 00:31:51,930 irresponsible campaign based on fear and 727 00:31:58,190 --> 00:31:56,070 lies unfortunately I don't have time to 728 00:32:00,560 --> 00:31:58,200 complete the catalogue of crimes against 729 00:32:03,260 --> 00:32:00,570 reason and common decency perpetrated by 730 00:32:06,320 --> 00:32:03,270 this group I don't know what motivates 731 00:32:08,750 --> 00:32:06,330 them I imagine that they are sincere but 732 00:32:11,470 --> 00:32:08,760 they are misguided probably due to some 733 00:32:15,830 --> 00:32:11,480 combination of soup superstition 734 00:32:18,470 --> 00:32:15,840 paranoia and scientific illiteracy all 735 00:32:20,480 --> 00:32:18,480 of that can be forgiven but the tactics 736 00:32:22,640 --> 00:32:20,490 they've used to spread their message of 737 00:32:26,750 --> 00:32:22,650 fear and doubt to unsuspecting parents 738 00:32:28,520 --> 00:32:26,760 are apparent it's true that we do enjoy 739 00:32:31,420 --> 00:32:28,530 freedom of speech in this country and 740 00:32:33,950 --> 00:32:31,430 I'm a fierce defender of that freedom 741 00:32:36,740 --> 00:32:33,960 but because of the potential for harm 742 00:32:39,500 --> 00:32:36,750 we've rules about misleading medical 743 00:32:42,860 --> 00:32:39,510 claims we regulate medicines and we 744 00:32:47,200 --> 00:32:42,870 regulate doctors in the case of the 745 00:32:49,610 --> 00:32:47,210 avian that regulation is not working for 746 00:32:51,530 --> 00:32:49,620 instance among the many complaints held 747 00:32:53,900 --> 00:32:51,540 against me story in a group the TGA 748 00:32:56,750 --> 00:32:53,910 ordered her to retract claims about a 749 00:32:58,700 --> 00:32:56,760 dodgy can secure called black salvo but 750 00:33:02,450 --> 00:32:58,710 she's not done that in violation of the 751 00:33:04,790 --> 00:33:02,460 TGA order well-meaning parents in this 752 00:33:06,890 --> 00:33:04,800 country who go in search in good faith 753 00:33:09,020 --> 00:33:06,900 for information on vaccines are 754 00:33:11,660 --> 00:33:09,030 confronted with avian propaganda and 755 00:33:13,280 --> 00:33:11,670 without knowing the background it's 756 00:33:15,730 --> 00:33:13,290 difficult for them to weigh the 757 00:33:17,830 --> 00:33:15,740 credibility of this information in 758 00:33:20,930 --> 00:33:17,840 comparison to the medical literature 759 00:33:24,140 --> 00:33:20,940 it's no wonder some parents are deciding 760 00:33:25,789 --> 00:33:24,150 to delay or forego vaccination but it 761 00:33:28,159 --> 00:33:25,799 could be a fatal decision 762 00:33:30,560 --> 00:33:28,169 and for that reason the avian need to be 763 00:33:32,239 --> 00:33:30,570 held to account I condemn them the 764 00:33:43,700 --> 00:33:32,249 Australian Greens condemn them in the 765 00:33:45,560 --> 00:33:43,710 Australian Senate condemns them the 766 00:33:48,710 --> 00:33:45,570 skeptic magazine the journal from 767 00:33:50,930 --> 00:33:48,720 Australian skeptics subscribe online to 768 00:33:56,239 --> 00:33:50,940 the world's second oldest skeptical 769 00:33:58,999 --> 00:33:56,249 magazine visit w WC apx com au and click 770 00:34:02,960 --> 00:33:59,009 the publication's league you can also 771 00:34:06,289 --> 00:34:02,970 find their over 30 years on back issues 772 00:34:19,359 --> 00:34:06,299 free to download the skeptic magazine 773 00:34:21,820 --> 00:34:19,369 from Australian skeptics here's may not 774 00:34:25,300 --> 00:34:21,830 spooky action 775 00:34:29,480 --> 00:34:27,050 ladies and gentlemen were talking to 776 00:34:31,430 --> 00:34:29,490 someone from the CSIRO we're talking to 777 00:34:33,350 --> 00:34:31,440 jonathan roberts now what is your 778 00:34:37,460 --> 00:34:33,360 relationship with the beautifully named 779 00:34:40,850 --> 00:34:37,470 autonomous research laboratory well i am 780 00:34:44,300 --> 00:34:40,860 the director of the research lab so the 781 00:34:46,520 --> 00:34:44,310 autonomous systems research lab is a lab 782 00:34:50,030 --> 00:34:46,530 up in Brisbane and we do think all 783 00:34:52,670 --> 00:34:50,040 robotic and autonomous system oh and 784 00:34:54,530 --> 00:34:52,680 what did you get your doctorate in oh I 785 00:34:57,950 --> 00:34:54,540 think got my doctorate in computer 786 00:35:00,380 --> 00:34:57,960 vision systems and what I have computed 787 00:35:02,450 --> 00:35:00,390 and what drew you to that and I guess 788 00:35:04,280 --> 00:35:02,460 that that's so they can do they can do 789 00:35:07,220 --> 00:35:04,290 all sorts of things where perception 790 00:35:08,600 --> 00:35:07,230 recognition 3d movement is that what 791 00:35:11,600 --> 00:35:08,610 attracted you to that that particular 792 00:35:14,300 --> 00:35:11,610 field absolutely yes I mean what really 793 00:35:16,070 --> 00:35:14,310 attracted me was being the movie star 794 00:35:18,170 --> 00:35:16,080 wars getting all excited as a little 795 00:35:21,560 --> 00:35:18,180 kids and then as I went through 796 00:35:24,200 --> 00:35:21,570 University and for robot sort of vision 797 00:35:26,030 --> 00:35:24,210 was an interesting topic and trying to 798 00:35:27,710 --> 00:35:26,040 understand how you get a robot to see 799 00:35:30,080 --> 00:35:27,720 the world or the great research 800 00:35:31,960 --> 00:35:30,090 challenge and what still is the greatest 801 00:35:34,370 --> 00:35:31,970 challenge when it comes to a machine 802 00:35:37,070 --> 00:35:34,380 seeing the real world and working out 803 00:35:40,820 --> 00:35:37,080 what it is I think it's really this idea 804 00:35:43,580 --> 00:35:40,830 of perception of how you take camera 805 00:35:46,430 --> 00:35:43,590 images or images created by other 806 00:35:48,950 --> 00:35:46,440 devices like language and how you endow 807 00:35:51,770 --> 00:35:48,960 the Machine interpret water theme that 808 00:35:54,290 --> 00:35:51,780 is a real old problem we've we've got a 809 00:35:57,050 --> 00:35:54,300 few solutions to a few of a few things 810 00:36:00,350 --> 00:35:57,060 what area but not not that anything that 811 00:36:02,180 --> 00:36:00,360 could compete with a human in the area 812 00:36:03,350 --> 00:36:02,190 that you work in with the laser mapping 813 00:36:05,540 --> 00:36:03,360 that we're going to talk about in the 814 00:36:07,880 --> 00:36:05,550 moment and and with all robot and 815 00:36:10,160 --> 00:36:07,890 machine work is it very difficult to 816 00:36:12,440 --> 00:36:10,170 compete with love the powerhouses of yo 817 00:36:14,420 --> 00:36:12,450 California in the US and China and the 818 00:36:18,050 --> 00:36:14,430 UK how do we how do we fit up against 819 00:36:20,150 --> 00:36:18,060 them oh very well actually uh we we 820 00:36:22,220 --> 00:36:20,160 compete by getting people from woven 821 00:36:24,890 --> 00:36:22,230 world of course we don't have many 822 00:36:26,740 --> 00:36:24,900 people in Australia as other powerhouses 823 00:36:29,870 --> 00:36:26,750 but we can make up for that by 824 00:36:33,170 --> 00:36:29,880 attracting people here my laboratory has 825 00:36:36,080 --> 00:36:33,180 about 50 research stuff and probably 30 826 00:36:38,180 --> 00:36:36,090 of them come from around the world and 827 00:36:38,779 --> 00:36:38,190 we get the best and brightest bring them 828 00:36:40,159 --> 00:36:38,789 here 829 00:36:42,049 --> 00:36:40,169 of course they become Australian 830 00:36:44,599 --> 00:36:42,059 eventually because I love it so much and 831 00:36:46,819 --> 00:36:44,609 that's how we can compete and and what 832 00:36:48,019 --> 00:36:46,829 actually do the scientists like as most 833 00:36:49,669 --> 00:36:48,029 about this country is it something about 834 00:36:51,919 --> 00:36:49,679 the lifestyle they like going for a swim 835 00:36:54,679 --> 00:36:51,929 it's it's easy we tell better jokes what 836 00:36:56,269 --> 00:36:54,689 do they like about the country oh yeah 837 00:36:58,459 --> 00:36:56,279 the people we have here I mean they all 838 00:37:00,919 --> 00:36:58,469 love it very few of them ever go back to 839 00:37:02,870 --> 00:37:00,929 where I came from they love all of them 840 00:37:04,579 --> 00:37:02,880 so that they love is that I think I love 841 00:37:07,729 --> 00:37:04,589 the environment ramya they love the 842 00:37:09,529 --> 00:37:07,739 positivity it's it's a great place to do 843 00:37:11,359 --> 00:37:09,539 research and food technology work 844 00:37:13,699 --> 00:37:11,369 because people are so call design 845 00:37:16,579 --> 00:37:13,709 actually wants a doc new mitogenic thing 846 00:37:18,409 --> 00:37:16,589 what look now I have to ask you before 847 00:37:20,509 --> 00:37:18,419 we get on to the main product zebedee 848 00:37:22,309 --> 00:37:20,519 whereas i think is fantastic what is 849 00:37:24,349 --> 00:37:22,319 your what do you thinks the best example 850 00:37:25,489 --> 00:37:24,359 of computers in science fiction movie 851 00:37:27,140 --> 00:37:25,499 what's the one where you look at it and 852 00:37:29,839 --> 00:37:27,150 go well that's kind of getting towards 853 00:37:33,439 --> 00:37:29,849 what we could or might do well my 854 00:37:35,989 --> 00:37:33,449 favorite robot is the IND r2d2 from Star 855 00:37:37,549 --> 00:37:35,999 warranties cover my arrow a lot of 856 00:37:39,679 --> 00:37:37,559 people don't realize but those Star Wars 857 00:37:42,829 --> 00:37:39,689 movies really if they revolve around 858 00:37:44,959 --> 00:37:42,839 around our PVC it's all about him and 859 00:37:46,549 --> 00:37:44,969 he's kind of this great little robot 860 00:37:48,739 --> 00:37:46,559 that can do everything and what's the 861 00:37:50,479 --> 00:37:48,749 favor galaxy it definitely the one well 862 00:37:52,429 --> 00:37:50,489 I thought you might have gone from of a 863 00:37:54,169 --> 00:37:52,439 blade run a replicant kind of thing you 864 00:37:56,089 --> 00:37:54,179 know with the very advanced robot the 865 00:37:59,149 --> 00:37:56,099 can't be taught to top apart from a 866 00:38:01,219 --> 00:37:59,159 human they're been scary yeah yeah and 867 00:38:02,870 --> 00:38:01,229 do you think that is as we if you try 868 00:38:04,549 --> 00:38:02,880 and make a robot a bit too much like a 869 00:38:06,709 --> 00:38:04,559 human and you don't quite get it right 870 00:38:08,359 --> 00:38:06,719 it looks a bit eerie doesn't it it does 871 00:38:10,669 --> 00:38:08,369 and there's an official term for that 872 00:38:12,589 --> 00:38:10,679 it's called the uncanny valley which is 873 00:38:14,809 --> 00:38:12,599 this this idea that when you get a 874 00:38:16,640 --> 00:38:14,819 little bit you know if something's 875 00:38:18,529 --> 00:38:16,650 perfect it's okay and if something's 876 00:38:20,209 --> 00:38:18,539 really different it's okay but if it's 877 00:38:22,370 --> 00:38:20,219 been that between between stay where 878 00:38:24,709 --> 00:38:22,380 it's getting a bit realistic but it's 879 00:38:26,479 --> 00:38:24,719 just um camera it's not quite right yeah 880 00:38:28,399 --> 00:38:26,489 I've heard this they have this effect 881 00:38:30,169 --> 00:38:28,409 with video games and video games are 882 00:38:32,329 --> 00:38:30,179 almost looking to reel you get the 883 00:38:34,099 --> 00:38:32,339 uncanny valley effect where it's almost 884 00:38:35,599 --> 00:38:34,109 a put off because the Bloods looking to 885 00:38:37,130 --> 00:38:35,609 reel is like you really are shooting 886 00:38:39,019 --> 00:38:37,140 someone yeah that's right exactly right 887 00:38:40,849 --> 00:38:39,029 it's the same with robots so you have to 888 00:38:43,159 --> 00:38:40,859 have to think about that stuff with you 889 00:38:45,109 --> 00:38:43,169 when you make a design robot well what 890 00:38:46,999 --> 00:38:45,119 you've been making and designing at the 891 00:38:50,390 --> 00:38:47,009 research laboratory there for the CSIRO 892 00:38:52,429 --> 00:38:50,400 is a laser 3d mapping equipment called 893 00:38:52,640 --> 00:38:52,439 Zebedee explain it to us and what sort 894 00:38:54,799 --> 00:38:52,650 of you 895 00:38:57,380 --> 00:38:54,809 users would have yes so this equipment 896 00:38:59,029 --> 00:38:57,390 was originally built for robots so that 897 00:39:01,579 --> 00:38:59,039 as I move around the environment they 898 00:39:03,620 --> 00:39:01,589 can app the world and our researchers 899 00:39:07,549 --> 00:39:03,630 realize that humans could also use it 900 00:39:11,510 --> 00:39:07,559 though it did the system that can be 901 00:39:12,950 --> 00:39:11,520 used to as you walk around you wave sort 902 00:39:15,109 --> 00:39:12,960 of it's like a magic wok that has a 903 00:39:17,960 --> 00:39:15,119 laser scanner on the end of a little 904 00:39:20,029 --> 00:39:17,970 handle it's on the end of the spring and 905 00:39:22,069 --> 00:39:20,039 you walk around an environment you could 906 00:39:23,990 --> 00:39:22,079 walk around buildings or a forest point 907 00:39:26,779 --> 00:39:24,000 anywhere you want the map and it 908 00:39:29,019 --> 00:39:26,789 actually acts the whole world in quite a 909 00:39:31,250 --> 00:39:29,029 lot of detail sort of about a centimeter 910 00:39:33,529 --> 00:39:31,260 level of detail and in that bit of 911 00:39:36,950 --> 00:39:33,539 started you can walk around so you can 912 00:39:38,269 --> 00:39:36,960 go and map a historic sites which are 913 00:39:40,910 --> 00:39:38,279 we've done a number of those or you 914 00:39:42,859 --> 00:39:40,920 could map cave we've mapped you know and 915 00:39:44,630 --> 00:39:42,869 came from the Blue Mountain you can 916 00:39:48,049 --> 00:39:44,640 check that all the mapping information 917 00:39:51,289 --> 00:39:48,059 do it will then because it's very fast 918 00:39:53,420 --> 00:39:51,299 moving to you and then you can load that 919 00:39:56,359 --> 00:39:53,430 into you know whatever computer 920 00:39:59,029 --> 00:39:56,369 modelling package you might use to 921 00:40:00,620 --> 00:39:59,039 actually do your work and what's the 922 00:40:02,299 --> 00:40:00,630 range of it because obviously a laser 923 00:40:04,579 --> 00:40:02,309 can potentially go on infinitely 924 00:40:06,140 --> 00:40:04,589 depending on how its weaknesses how high 925 00:40:08,180 --> 00:40:06,150 can you map if you're in a very tall 926 00:40:10,309 --> 00:40:08,190 room or outdoors I've seen it being used 927 00:40:12,589 --> 00:40:10,319 in the bush that's right so there later 928 00:40:17,019 --> 00:40:12,599 they typically work ones were you what's 929 00:40:20,359 --> 00:40:17,029 about 20 meters and really there is 930 00:40:24,410 --> 00:40:20,369 keeping related nice and low power over 931 00:40:26,000 --> 00:40:24,420 it completely I safe yes what's the 932 00:40:27,140 --> 00:40:26,010 limit of the power of the laser you can 933 00:40:29,450 --> 00:40:27,150 have on something that's just waving 934 00:40:31,700 --> 00:40:29,460 around at an angle in public and that 935 00:40:32,990 --> 00:40:31,710 you can probably is from the it decay 936 00:40:34,370 --> 00:40:33,000 all depends of course on the amount of 937 00:40:37,250 --> 00:40:34,380 energy coming out the laser but we 938 00:40:38,990 --> 00:40:37,260 typically see lasers that will work up 939 00:40:42,289 --> 00:40:39,000 to a couple of hundred meters that are 940 00:40:44,180 --> 00:40:42,299 so-called I safe but those ones that are 941 00:40:46,370 --> 00:40:44,190 much have those great arranger tend to 942 00:40:49,250 --> 00:40:46,380 be fought yet larger bigger and bulkier 943 00:40:51,170 --> 00:40:49,260 so the small ones for hand they all go 944 00:40:52,880 --> 00:40:51,180 to about 20 meters the first thing I 945 00:40:55,130 --> 00:40:52,890 thought when I saw this and you have to 946 00:40:58,190 --> 00:40:55,140 tell us a lot about meez I thought dance 947 00:41:00,349 --> 00:40:58,200 parties if everybody at a dance party 948 00:41:02,329 --> 00:41:00,359 had one of these in a blackened room 949 00:41:06,380 --> 00:41:02,339 with a smoke machine going it would be 950 00:41:07,519 --> 00:41:06,390 awesome yes I can defeat and 951 00:41:08,660 --> 00:41:07,529 come on I mean you must have some good 952 00:41:11,089 --> 00:41:08,670 Christmas parties where you let the 953 00:41:12,799 --> 00:41:11,099 lasers go in the lab come on well then 954 00:41:14,990 --> 00:41:12,809 they're actually not visible so these 955 00:41:17,660 --> 00:41:15,000 losers are all they're all near infrared 956 00:41:19,849 --> 00:41:17,670 if we can't quite see them our eyesight 957 00:41:21,589 --> 00:41:19,859 aren't quite seeing that frequently and 958 00:41:23,180 --> 00:41:21,599 this is where mining would come in handy 959 00:41:24,410 --> 00:41:23,190 to you could do it as often as you like 960 00:41:28,130 --> 00:41:24,420 and you can tell if there's been is 961 00:41:30,289 --> 00:41:28,140 shift in the earth exactly right and is 962 00:41:33,200 --> 00:41:30,299 a probable youth in underground mining 963 00:41:35,569 --> 00:41:33,210 as an issue called tunnel convergence 964 00:41:37,819 --> 00:41:35,579 where tunnels of court would be they 965 00:41:39,740 --> 00:41:37,829 often shrinks and get narrower over time 966 00:41:42,500 --> 00:41:39,750 and that we are the weight of the earth 967 00:41:46,519 --> 00:41:42,510 of government loosen and core final life 968 00:41:48,230 --> 00:41:46,529 monitor that there is going and I must 969 00:41:49,970 --> 00:41:48,240 explain people how it's used again you 970 00:41:52,099 --> 00:41:49,980 walk along you hold it at about chest 971 00:41:54,680 --> 00:41:52,109 height it's on a spring so the walking 972 00:41:56,720 --> 00:41:54,690 motion starts moving a laser around and 973 00:41:57,829 --> 00:41:56,730 that's how it does its mapping and what 974 00:42:00,170 --> 00:41:57,839 country do you think would like it 975 00:42:01,460 --> 00:42:00,180 obviously mining in Australia who has 976 00:42:02,630 --> 00:42:01,470 the money when it comes to this kind of 977 00:42:04,039 --> 00:42:02,640 thing who do you normally pitch to 978 00:42:06,200 --> 00:42:04,049 everyone would think of automatically 979 00:42:09,200 --> 00:42:06,210 Americans or Chinese but is there some 980 00:42:11,539 --> 00:42:09,210 other market we forget about well it's I 981 00:42:13,249 --> 00:42:11,549 I think I think this will have roiled 982 00:42:15,470 --> 00:42:13,259 wide appeal it's currently been 983 00:42:18,940 --> 00:42:15,480 commercialized by a company based in the 984 00:42:21,650 --> 00:42:18,950 UK who of course sell it internationally 985 00:42:24,230 --> 00:42:21,660 and but I think I really think this will 986 00:42:26,390 --> 00:42:24,240 be a worldwide productive it can be used 987 00:42:27,650 --> 00:42:26,400 to map I don't anything and jonathan 988 00:42:28,910 --> 00:42:27,660 roberts is someone who knows the 989 00:42:31,819 --> 00:42:28,920 industry and the technology industry 990 00:42:32,839 --> 00:42:31,829 someone might be about to go into union 991 00:42:34,460 --> 00:42:32,849 they're not quite sure that when they 992 00:42:36,019 --> 00:42:34,470 might do chemistry they might do physics 993 00:42:38,809 --> 00:42:36,029 what would you recommend they get into 994 00:42:41,329 --> 00:42:38,819 for the future boom area of australian 995 00:42:43,150 --> 00:42:41,339 technology so in this hot this whole 996 00:42:45,529 --> 00:42:43,160 area of robotics is actually quite 997 00:42:48,079 --> 00:42:45,539 multi-disciplinary which is very good so 998 00:42:50,839 --> 00:42:48,089 we have people working who are 999 00:42:53,120 --> 00:42:50,849 mathematicians the electrical engineers 1000 00:42:55,309 --> 00:42:53,130 Mechanical Engineering we have physicist 1001 00:42:57,740 --> 00:42:55,319 myself i'm actually an aerospace 1002 00:43:00,019 --> 00:42:57,750 engineer / either the university my 1003 00:43:02,180 --> 00:43:00,029 first degree and there's a new breed of 1004 00:43:05,140 --> 00:43:02,190 engineers called mechatronic engineers 1005 00:43:07,609 --> 00:43:05,150 as a number of universes sorry narrative 1006 00:43:10,819 --> 00:43:07,619 mechatronic as a ninja going to bring up 1007 00:43:13,249 --> 00:43:10,829 confusion between mechanical electrical 1008 00:43:17,029 --> 00:43:13,259 and electronic engineering so kind of 1009 00:43:20,270 --> 00:43:17,039 that whole broad range of engineering i 1010 00:43:21,560 --> 00:43:20,280 think would be great thing 1011 00:43:23,630 --> 00:43:21,570 thank you very much for your time today 1012 00:43:24,890 --> 00:43:23,640 and as an Aeronautics engineer again we 1013 00:43:26,540 --> 00:43:24,900 can get inside what's your favorite 1014 00:43:28,610 --> 00:43:26,550 plane ever I'm a bit of a fan of the 1015 00:43:30,410 --> 00:43:28,620 adore Obama the first-ever jet bomber 1016 00:43:32,360 --> 00:43:30,420 the Germans made I liked it it was back 1017 00:43:33,650 --> 00:43:32,370 bit weird what's your favorite aeroplane 1018 00:43:36,500 --> 00:43:33,660 ever as someone who knows about 1019 00:43:38,870 --> 00:43:36,510 aeronautics back the Maquis tags from 1020 00:43:43,310 --> 00:43:38,880 Iowa what was that purely because it was 1021 00:43:44,810 --> 00:43:43,320 made of wood yes that's like exactly oh 1022 00:43:45,890 --> 00:43:44,820 boy yeah well you just wouldn't think 1023 00:43:48,860 --> 00:43:45,900 okay let's make something groundbreaking 1024 00:43:50,870 --> 00:43:48,870 I let you some wood for it you clearly 1025 00:43:52,640 --> 00:43:50,880 know your aircraft on correct oh I just 1026 00:43:54,230 --> 00:43:52,650 slept too late watching people fight 1027 00:43:56,870 --> 00:43:54,240 Germans on television you should intend 1028 00:43:58,610 --> 00:43:56,880 to pick up this sort of knowledge look 1029 00:44:00,020 --> 00:43:58,620 Jonathan Roberts thanks for trying to us 1030 00:44:01,430 --> 00:44:00,030 and where can people what website can 1031 00:44:03,470 --> 00:44:01,440 people go to to find out more about 1032 00:44:05,330 --> 00:44:03,480 Zebedee in this 3d mapping system and 1033 00:44:07,670 --> 00:44:05,340 what you get up to it the autonomous 1034 00:44:10,700 --> 00:44:07,680 research laboratory I love that name so 1035 00:44:15,170 --> 00:44:10,710 if you just go to zero dot a you we have 1036 00:44:17,690 --> 00:44:15,180 a very simple website address / ASL on 1037 00:44:20,870 --> 00:44:17,700 the AFL fence the autonomous systems lab 1038 00:44:22,400 --> 00:44:20,880 so there's our over a new / AFL and 1039 00:44:24,770 --> 00:44:22,410 you're found or thoughtful well 1040 00:44:26,090 --> 00:44:24,780 interesting research well thank you for 1041 00:44:27,980 --> 00:44:26,100 talking to us from the autonomous 1042 00:44:42,329 --> 00:44:27,990 systems lab today jonathan roberts 1043 00:44:42,339 --> 00:44:50,490 in a world where the truth is a matter 1044 00:44:58,390 --> 00:44:53,550 we're messages are a scene for beyond 1045 00:45:04,460 --> 00:45:01,750 and reason is sidelined for magical 1046 00:45:13,370 --> 00:45:06,800 oh please read them stand between the 1047 00:45:14,930 --> 00:45:13,380 truth what date is it 78 several thing 1048 00:45:16,310 --> 00:45:14,940 this is impressive it's beating our 1049 00:45:18,370 --> 00:45:16,320 system present they're not their 1050 00:45:21,349 --> 00:45:18,380 photographs of Chinese anthem it's not 1051 00:45:23,180 --> 00:45:21,359 we are not well received is a good guard 1052 00:45:25,190 --> 00:45:23,190 we're fully don't discuss cryptozoology 1053 00:45:27,140 --> 00:45:25,200 on the show very often because we don't 1054 00:45:29,000 --> 00:45:27,150 know anything about how the truth the 1055 00:45:30,710 --> 00:45:29,010 price gets lower and lower and lower and 1056 00:45:35,300 --> 00:45:30,720 then he hits the ceiling it's just even 1057 00:45:37,130 --> 00:45:35,310 for the rumba more skeptic to the K for 1058 00:45:51,280 --> 00:45:37,140 the Most High skeptics society find us 1059 00:45:57,110 --> 00:45:53,840 thank you for listening to the skeptic 1060 00:45:59,600 --> 00:45:57,120 zone well it's time for me to get the 1061 00:46:00,860 --> 00:45:59,610 suitcase out of the cupboard it hasn't 1062 00:46:02,660 --> 00:46:00,870 been in there for long get the suitcase 1063 00:46:04,880 --> 00:46:02,670 out of the cupboard start packing my 1064 00:46:06,710 --> 00:46:04,890 bits and pieces for my trip to 1065 00:46:09,260 --> 00:46:06,720 California or I'll be spending a few 1066 00:46:12,500 --> 00:46:09,270 days in the Bay Area then after that on 1067 00:46:14,090 --> 00:46:12,510 to the amazing meeting in Las Vegas one 1068 00:46:16,640 --> 00:46:14,100 of the highlights of my year to be sure 1069 00:46:18,470 --> 00:46:16,650 and I do look forward to catching up 1070 00:46:20,840 --> 00:46:18,480 with lots of friends I only get to see 1071 00:46:24,260 --> 00:46:20,850 once or twice a year if I'm lucky that's 1072 00:46:26,300 --> 00:46:24,270 a I think apart from the wonderful talks 1073 00:46:29,270 --> 00:46:26,310 i'll be attending and hearing and the 1074 00:46:31,550 --> 00:46:29,280 events i think catching up with good and 1075 00:46:34,730 --> 00:46:31,560 dear friends is one of the highlights of 1076 00:46:37,010 --> 00:46:34,740 the amazing meeting for me so next 1077 00:46:39,950 --> 00:46:37,020 week's program will be coming to you 1078 00:46:42,140 --> 00:46:39,960 from the bay area in in california I 1079 00:46:44,420 --> 00:46:42,150 wonder what interesting things I can 1080 00:46:47,350 --> 00:46:44,430 discover there well I hope to be 1081 00:46:49,880 --> 00:46:47,360 catching up with our dear friend dr. 1082 00:46:53,360 --> 00:46:49,890 Eugenie Scott from the National Center 1083 00:46:55,760 --> 00:46:53,370 science education in Oakland always 1084 00:46:58,070 --> 00:46:55,770 worth a visit so until next week this is 1085 00:47:03,950 --> 00:46:58,080 Richard Saunders signing off from Sydney 1086 00:47:05,680 --> 00:47:03,960 Australia you've been listening to the 1087 00:47:10,480 --> 00:47:05,690 skeptics are 1088 00:47:13,540 --> 00:47:10,490 visit our website at www skeptics on TV